CANADA POST > At Issue | Liberal plan to save Canada Post sparks backlash

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At issue, Canada Post. The Liberals

0:02

unveiled their plans to modernize Canada

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Post with proposals to end home delivery

0:07

and alter rural post offices and ensure,

0:10

they say, the long-term viability of the

0:12

corporation.

0:13

There are limits to our capacity to bail

0:16

out Canada Post year after year. And we

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need to, you know, it needs to show a

0:21

path to uh financial viability. But the

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move has prompted swift action from the

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postal union calling on workers to walk

0:29

off the job.

0:30

It's it's happening in real time, but uh

0:32

it will be soon.

0:35

So, what's to be made of the union's

0:36

decision to strike right across the

0:38

country? Can a change to mail delivery

0:40

be a political headache? I'm Rosemary

0:42

Barton. Here to break it all down,

0:43

Shantelli Bear, Andrew Coin, Althia Raj.

0:45

Good to see everyone. Uh I was chatting

0:47

before we started that I have been

0:49

around long enough to remember uh a

0:51

decade ago when this was a a political

0:54

headache and uh the Justin Trudeau

0:56

Liberals uh ran on on stopping what is

0:59

now sort of in the offing from

1:00

happening. Uh so it it's definitely an

1:03

issue. Uh Shantel, what do you make of

1:06

both the government's decision to follow

1:07

these recommendations to uh scale back

1:10

uh delivery in a dramatic way and then I

1:13

guess the union's reaction?

1:15

Okay, it's kind of groundhog day uh in

1:19

the sense of the government announcement

1:21

because uh what prompted the Nikad who

1:24

was then the mayor of Montreal to do

1:25

what he did was an announcement by the

1:28

conservatives a decade ago that they

1:30

would do basically what has been

1:32

announced today. So if you want to look

1:35

at it from this angle, we've just uh

1:38

wasted a decade of doing something that

1:40

may have been inevitable. Uh as for the

1:43

decision to strike,

1:46

I guess it's a choice the government

1:48

made to make this announcement uh as

1:52

negotiations are still ongoing over a

1:54

labor contract between the postal

1:56

workers and and Canada Post, but they

2:00

they are in a strike position. It seems

2:03

to have blindsided them. I wasn't there,

2:06

so I don't know, but I I am not

2:08

surprised that that's the reaction. And

2:10

to your basic question, can changes to

2:12

Canada Post bring political headaches to

2:15

a government? Yes, we will get the test

2:18

again possibly. The government's

2:20

preferred way of going to the labor

2:23

relations board to end the work

2:25

stoppage.

2:26

Denny Codair, for people who don't

2:28

remember, took a jackhammer to a

2:29

community mailbox. I think it was back

2:31

in 2014 uh as a response to this and it

2:34

became uh to to Shantel's point, an

2:36

election issue. Um, I mean, we're 10

2:38

years later, Andrew, and Canada Post

2:40

continues to bleed, uh, a lot of money,

2:43

a billion dollars last year, a billion

2:44

and a half, I think, um, for this year.

2:47

So, so I mean, there are questions about

2:49

how viable this is.

2:51

Yeah. I mean, listening to management,

2:53

labor, what's that old line about two

2:55

bald men fighting over a comb? You know,

2:57

that the the union seems to think that

2:59

the purpose of Canada Post is to provide

3:02

them with things to do. uh and

3:04

regardless of what is the cost to the

3:07

taxpayer or the cost to the consumer. Uh

3:09

so the the losses mount and the union is

3:11

just in this kind of never neverland

3:12

where nothing has happened management

3:14

seems to think that Canada Post's

3:15

purpose is to provide less and less

3:17

service at higher and higher prices year

3:19

after year after year which is

3:20

admittedly the logic of all monopolists.

3:23

Uh and the government seems to agree

3:24

with the both that they all seem to

3:26

think the purpose of this whole exercise

3:27

is to fix Canada Post to try to limit

3:29

its losses to keep it as a viable

3:31

corporation. It seems to me what we

3:33

ought to be trying to fix is postal

3:35

service, whether or not that involves

3:36

Canada Post. I mean, we're now going to

3:38

go to a position where nobody in this

3:40

country is going to have home delivery.

3:42

Could somebody else provide postal

3:44

service uh in their place? Uh uh no,

3:46

they're not. They're not allowed to by a

3:48

statutory monopoly. Now, that you could

3:50

argue about the val validity of that in

3:52

the past, but we're now in the absurd

3:54

position where we're going to keep

3:55

enforcing a statutory monopoly for

3:57

Canada Post on a service it refuses to

4:00

provide. Uh I I think at some point the

4:03

absurdity of that situation has to kick

4:05

through and we should be doing what

4:06

countries across Europe have done which

4:08

is to open postal service to free and

4:10

open competition. There's just no reason

4:12

anymore to preserve this outdated

4:14

monopoly particularly when the product

4:16

of it is now a a a absurdly again a

4:20

monopolist that's going broke.

4:22

The the the minister certainly uh

4:24

talking to David Cochran tonight did

4:25

didn't was not contemplating any of

4:27

those things. believe uh Canada Post

4:29

remains important and and fundamental to

4:31

the country etc. But I I take your

4:32

point, Althia.

4:34

I didn't see um Joel Lightbound's

4:36

interview on CBC, but I did watch his

4:39

press conference.

4:39

Yeah.

4:40

And I thought he actually did a pretty

4:41

good job of saying like, listen, if you

4:44

want Canada Post to remain a crown

4:46

corporation, and the government is uh

4:50

would like to see it continue that way.

4:52

It has to make big difficult changes.

4:54

And frankly, so far everything it

4:56

announced were things that William

4:58

Kaplan uh prescribed, recommended

5:02

um in the report in the summer, which

5:05

are things that have long been

5:07

recommended. Um and so none of this

5:10

should have come, frankly, as a surprise

5:12

to the union. And I fear that the

5:14

backlash that this has generated with

5:17

now, you know, every time there's a

5:19

strike, you get more and more bills that

5:22

say, "Oh, we're going to, you know,

5:24

because of the uncertainty of this

5:25

situation, we're going to send you bills

5:27

by email now, and uh we're not using

5:30

Canada Post anymore." And so, they're

5:32

kind of hurting their cause. And if we

5:34

want to go the way of royal male in the

5:36

UK to be privatized and I think owned by

5:38

some Czech billionaire or Austria or the

5:42

Netherlands or Germany, then I think

5:44

this is a fast way to get there. But Mr.

5:47

Kaplan in his report, much like the

5:49

government said today, like it is

5:51

completely financially unsustainable.

5:53

And I think Canadians can see that

5:55

whether the Trudeau government should

5:58

have done, you know, gone ahead with the

6:00

Harper plan and more community bail

6:01

mocks, maybe. But it's not the only

6:04

reason they're in this mess. They're in

6:05

this mess because of their collective

6:07

agreement basically

6:09

harms them in that they can't pivot in a

6:12

way and they've lost parcel very

6:15

lucrative contracts or I shouldn't say

6:17

very lucrative arm of the business to um

6:21

third-party companies that can be more

6:24

nimble and if they could do more

6:26

part-time work then you know that's

6:28

another recommendation in the Kaplan

6:29

report then maybe they would be able to

6:31

be more financially viable but I think

6:33

faced with these facts X, you know, you

6:36

can't have a crown corporation losing a

6:38

billion dollars a year.

6:39

No. Uh, and and Shantel, I, you know, I

6:42

don't know what what the outrage will be

6:44

for Canadians, I I'm not sure, you know,

6:47

a decade later whether it will have the

6:48

same political um impact that it did.

6:52

But for the government to be placed in

6:55

this position with a labor dispute again

6:58

uh because of a decision that it is

7:00

pushing forward on Canada Post that that

7:03

is problematic for the government

7:04

politically

7:06

possibly but it's also problematic I'm

7:08

guessing uh for the government to allow

7:11

a negotiated settlement to come through

7:14

on terms that would not work for its

7:17

plans uh to deal with Canada Post now

7:22

In normal business terms, we would have

7:25

been presented with a business plan

7:27

today and uh sense that uh doing all

7:30

this will um make it if not profitable

7:33

at least a break even operation. Nothing

7:36

like that happens and I think that's the

7:37

fatal flaw and the government's plan. Uh

7:41

that uh we know there will be less

7:44

service and by the way I live in

7:46

downtown Montreal. Amazon has found a

7:49

place to have boxes where you can go get

7:52

your packages. So it's not impossible to

7:55

get mail not at your door. But the

7:58

problem that is going to come about is

8:02

two things. One, the political alignment

8:05

the black and the NDP are going to

8:07

oppose that.

8:09

So it's going to rest on the

8:10

conservatives. Logic would suggest that

8:12

it was their solution and they would

8:14

back it. If that's the case, then that

8:17

basically means that Canada can there's

8:19

two major parties, the only two parties

8:21

that stand a chance at governing in the

8:23

near future agree that Canada Post will

8:27

stop home delivery. I'm not sure where

8:29

that leaves the union.

8:31

Uh 30 seconds or so to you, Andrew.

8:33

Uh this is I think going to be the 13th

8:35

national postal strike in several

8:37

decades. Uh every time they do it, they

8:39

lose more market share. They're already

8:42

essentially irrelevant in the parcel

8:43

delivery, which is the competitive side

8:44

of the business. The only thing they've

8:46

got left is the letter mail. They're

8:47

driving themselves out of business that

8:49

even though they have a monopoly on it.

8:51

Uh it it's it's obsolete. It's not

8:54

because letter mail is obsolete. It's

8:56

flourishing in other countries much more

8:58

so than it is here. It's that it's the

9:00

the postal service as a as a

9:02

organizational structure is obsolete.

9:04

Quick last word to you, Alia. I think

9:07

the political takeaway from this is

9:08

there's very little chance that we're

9:10

going to have an election in November.

9:12

This is going to be unpopular on many

9:14

sides that the uh Liberals are aware of,

9:16

whether that's from the resident side uh

9:19

or on the union labor side, which is

9:22

kind of a problem that they've been

9:23

trying to mend since they um

9:25

miscalculated on the Air Canada strike.

9:28

At issue, the gun buyback program. After

9:31

leaked comments from the public safety

9:32

minister questioning his own program

9:34

intended for gun owners to turn over

9:37

assault style weapons, the conservatives

9:39

are demanding the minister be fired.

9:41

Will the prime minister stop the

9:43

politics, fire the minister, and leave

9:45

Grandpa Joe's hunting rifle alone?

9:47

While the prime minister is standing

9:48

behind his minister and the program,

9:51

what the minister of public safety is

9:53

doing is doing it right. He's correcting

9:57

an inefficient system to provide

9:59

Canadian.

9:59

So, how strong is the prime minister's

10:01

support for the program and his

10:02

minister? Can the Liberals uh weather

10:04

these first calls? I think maybe the

10:05

first calls for a minister's

10:06

resignation. Uh here to break it down,

10:08

Shantel, Andrew, and Althia. Uh Althia,

10:10

let's start with you on this. Um

10:12

certainly the Minister of Public Safety

10:14

didn't look great given these uh this

10:17

conversation that he had with a tenant

10:19

uh where he seemed to express some

10:21

skepticism about the program or the way

10:23

it was being implemented. Uh and the

10:26

conservatives who don't like the program

10:28

to begin with um h have really you know

10:31

latched on to that.

10:34

Um I'm not sure what the question is in

10:35

there but yes that all that is true. Um

10:37

so in so the star got about a 20 minute

10:40

conversation u between Gary and his

10:43

hungry and his tenant his longtime

10:45

tenant that he knew really well. Um and

10:48

you know MPs often try to extract

10:51

themselves from difficult conversations

10:53

with their constituents by telling them

10:55

sometimes things that they want to hear.

10:57

But in this case you know he tells his

10:59

constituents well if I had you know to

11:02

start this program from scratch I

11:03

wouldn't have done it this way. Um he

11:06

jokes with them that he might bail him

11:07

out. At one point he tells them that you

11:10

know you can relax like the the police

11:13

municipal police services don't have the

11:14

resources to enact this law. Um

11:17

basically at the moment there's an

11:19

amnesty for uh gun owners who have

11:21

prohibited weapons. Um but as of October

11:24

31st that amnesty will be lifted unless

11:27

the government extends it. And you could

11:29

be charged. It will be a criminal code

11:31

offense to have these guns and not have

11:34

registered them with the government or

11:36

um send them back to get money back or

11:39

whatever the process is for these gun

11:41

owners.

11:42

Yeah.

11:43

How long can the prime minister hold on?

11:44

PMO seems to have decided that they

11:47

believe in backing their minister at the

11:49

moment.

11:50

The longer the calls go on, the more

11:52

difficult that becomes. Um, but if Mark

11:56

Carney decides to uh shuffle or remove

12:01

Mr. Anderson Hungary from his cabinet

12:03

post, he basically tells the

12:04

Conservatives what they need to do to go

12:06

after a cabinet minister. And so I think

12:08

the government is very hesitant to go in

12:10

that direction and he's going to try to

12:12

hang on as long as possible. Um there is

12:15

also going to be a cabinet shuffle in

12:18

the months ahead and so hopefully I

12:21

think the government is hoping that um

12:24

it can do the musical chairs around that

12:26

time. I

12:28

it's a policy that is inherited uh from

12:30

from the Trudeau Liberals uh Shantel but

12:32

it's obviously a policy that is also

12:35

important to Quebec which is where the

12:36

party's base is right now the the

12:38

largest part of its caucus. So all those

12:39

things are are important. It's also

12:41

important in terms of a sort of a value

12:43

positioning uh against the conservatives

12:45

as well.

12:47

I think it's uh important to regions of

12:50

the country, not just Quebec, where

12:51

there have been the these episodes where

12:55

people died uh as a result of wild

12:58

sprees by people who had somehow lost

13:01

their mental balance or were out for

13:03

revenge for something. So uh I I do

13:07

believe there is a market for gun

13:10

control measures. That being said, the

13:13

deadline on this has been extended

13:15

twice. Uh and at some point the

13:18

government has to decide a pilot project

13:20

in Cape Britain. It does not sound like

13:23

a vote of confidence in the buyback

13:26

program. Uh and I agree with Alpia.

13:28

There is no way that Mark Carney is

13:30

going to fire a minister this week. That

13:33

doesn't mean he won't fire a minister

13:34

when he does a real shuffle in a few

13:37

months.

13:38

Yes, Andrew.

13:39

There's an old line of Michael Kinsley's

13:41

that a gaff is when a politician tells

13:43

the truth. Uh I think there are real

13:45

questions around the efficacy and

13:47

efficiency of this program. Uh the

13:49

minister was unfortunate enough to have

13:51

confessed that to a constituent. But

13:54

it's it's problematic since the job of a

13:56

minister is not so much these days to

13:58

set policy as to sell them. And if

14:00

you're selling them by basically saying

14:01

I don't believe in them, that's that's

14:02

obviously a terrible problem for him.

14:05

But he was in a lot of trouble before

14:06

this, of course, let's recall. Um

14:09

earlier this year, he was asked basic

14:10

questions about how gun regulations work

14:12

and couldn't answer them in parliament.

14:14

Uh he had the whole business where he

14:16

had to recuse himself from as the public

14:18

safety minister from dealing with a

14:20

couple of Tamil terrorist organizations.

14:22

That was even before it was discovered

14:24

that he'd written letters on behalf of

14:27

an individual who was suspected accused

14:29

of being a terrorist. So he's already

14:32

got loaded down with perception if not

14:35

reality problems as the minister of

14:37

public safety. I I agree with my

14:39

colleagues that this no longer the

14:41

practice these days to to dump a

14:43

minister but he will be shuffled I would

14:45

bet money at the first opportunity. I is

14:47

it is it even more damaging Althia for

14:51

both the minister and the Liberals

14:52

because the Conservatives are so uh you

14:55

know strongly against this and and a lot

14:58

of their base obviously disagrees with

14:59

the the policy as well.

15:02

Well, it's a gift to the conservatives

15:03

because it allows them to fund raise on

15:05

the issue and this is guns has has been

15:07

traditionally a very lucrative

15:09

fundraising uh attempt for the

15:11

conservatives. Um, what struck me this

15:14

week was how quickly they actually moved

15:16

off of demanding he be fired. So on

15:19

Tuesday there were 31 questions. I think

15:21

they used all of their question slots to

15:23

demand that he be fired. And then when

15:25

the prime minister was in the house on

15:27

Wednesday, the leader round started off

15:29

asking that he be fired, but then they

15:31

moved on to um food prices. And so I

15:35

wondered if it it's helping them on the

15:38

fundraising front, but maybe it's not

15:40

something that is helping them grow

15:41

their vote with the people whose vote

15:43

they do need it to grow.

15:45

Um, and that perhaps is why, you know,

15:47

the questions in French are not about

15:50

the gun buyback program. They're about

15:51

other aspects of uh the public safety

15:54

file. So I think that's quite telling.

15:57

Last word to you.

15:58

Yeah.

15:59

If you look at what's been happening in

16:01

the US with guns and people uh getting

16:05

murdered or or shot at uh twice over two

16:08

weeks, high-profile both times for

16:11

different reasons, you kind of think

16:13

that uh maybe it's not the best time to

16:16

be defending uh the fact that assault

16:19

rifles would still be in the hands of

16:21

people. And yes, I understand the

16:24

difference between a hunting rifle and a

16:27

an assault rifle, but at this point, um

16:31

I still think the government is trying

16:33

to having both have it both ways. Having

16:36

a pilot project doesn't sound to me like

16:39

a committed government to a policy.

16:42

Well, I think they need to do the pilot

16:43

project for the the to find out what the

16:46

kinks are before they roll it out. Like

16:47

I think that's wise. The program has

16:49

already rolled out to businesses. I

16:51

think it's important to flag that and

16:52

the money has already been booked. So

16:54

to go against an election promise that

16:56

they've made so many times would be

16:58

quite a big bold move. Okay. I I got to

17:01

they also have recruited as a star

17:03

candidate a survivor from

17:08

I don't really think you want her to

17:10

quit

17:12

six months in

17:15

at issue Canada's role in the world. The

17:17

prime minister has met world leaders and

17:19

allies this week, working with some to

17:21

recognize a Palestinian state and

17:23

pushing for strengthened relations

17:25

abroad.

17:26

To diversify our trade and security

17:27

relationships, I met with leaders from

17:29

Asia, Africa, Europe, Latin America, and

17:32

the Caribbean, seeking new export

17:35

markets and new opportunities for

17:36

Canadians.

17:37

The Conservatives are accusing the prime

17:38

minister of dodging issues here in

17:40

Canada.

17:41

Prime Minister is yet on yet another

17:43

costly and useless photo op tour.

17:47

How significant are some of these

17:48

changes? What does it tell us about uh

17:50

Prime Minister Carney's view of Canada's

17:52

role in the world? Let's bring everyone

17:53

back. Shantel, Andrew, Althia. Um

17:55

obviously, Andrew, the the biggest shift

17:57

over this week was was Canada's position

17:59

on recognizing the state of Palestine,

18:01

but but a lot of it was also about

18:03

aligning with other countries um like

18:06

France, like the UK, the prime minister

18:08

off to the UK tonight. I I I wonder what

18:10

you make of of the sort of if there's a

18:13

bigger picture piece here in terms of uh

18:15

foreign policy.

18:16

Well, I think it's silly to say that,

18:18

you know, you should stay home, you

18:19

shouldn't be making foreign trips. Uh at

18:22

the same time, I don't think we should

18:24

have huge expectations for how much can

18:26

be accomplished certainly in the short

18:27

run. We are in a real pickle, frankly,

18:30

as a country. uh the our country that

18:32

that we've counted upon to be our main

18:34

protector historically cannot

18:36

necessarily be counted on to do that at

18:39

a time when uh the natural barriers that

18:42

protected our ter our own territory are

18:44

no longer the barriers they once were.

18:46

The coal the the oceans are no longer

18:48

the type of barriers they once were. Uh

18:50

so we have a real question about how

18:51

we're going to defend that territory.

18:53

Point one. Point two, we've been free

18:55

riding on the rest of NATO for decades.

18:57

Uh we can no longer do that. We can no

18:59

longer do that in part because we really

19:01

need to be much closer to all the other

19:03

countries in NATO. NATO has its own

19:05

existential question of can it really

19:07

count on the United States to be a

19:09

member anymore to be a member in good

19:10

standing that would actually live up to

19:12

its article 5 obligations. So something

19:14

is going to be coming out of that that

19:16

we obviously have to be a big part of

19:18

and that's going to mean spending a lot

19:19

more money etc. We've been trying to

19:21

diversify our trade away from the

19:23

Americans for decades. We have an urgent

19:26

need to do so now. But um prospects of

19:28

that uh are slim. Uh he the prime

19:32

minister should certainly do whatever he

19:34

can uh to to strike free free trade

19:37

treaties with other countries. Uh I

19:39

would include in among whatever he can

19:42

slaughtering whatever sacred cows he

19:43

needs to do in Canada to to seal those

19:46

deals and we're a long way from that. Uh

19:49

so this kind of diplomacy is absolutely

19:51

part of that. But how much he's going to

19:53

be able to accomplish in the short term,

19:54

I think we should be very skeptical of

19:56

Shantel.

19:58

Well, if Puv had been elected prime

20:01

minister, I think it would have been

20:03

part of his duty to get on some kind of

20:05

a get acquainted tour, especially in the

20:08

current context, the one that Andrew

20:11

totally described. So, uh, the notion

20:14

that there is no value to any of this,

20:17

that there is no value to having to a

20:19

face-to-face meeting in Mexico, our

20:21

partner in, uh, in in free trade, uh,

20:25

with the United States, that, uh, uh,

20:28

the conservatives were the one who

20:30

insisted after Brexit that we should be

20:33

very proactive on having more trade of a

20:36

trade relationship with the UK. That's

20:39

precisely where the prime minister is

20:40

going. And I find that very um well I I

20:44

don't know how to describe it adolescent

20:46

as a criticism to say look he's not

20:50

coming back with deals so he should be

20:52

staying home and I'm not sure what

20:54

pressing issue Mark Carney is not

20:56

attending to

20:58

Althia that's you

21:00

I don't disagree with the that framing

21:03

because I can't imagine that Pier Polyv

21:06

would not have gone to the UN General

21:07

Assembly at least his very first one I

21:09

mean it's a very short trip to New York,

21:11

like what 90 minutes from Ottawa, and

21:14

you meet all the world leaders in one

21:16

spot. Why would you not do that? Um, but

21:19

at the same time, I do think it starts

21:21

to seow doubts in Canadians minds about,

21:24

well, Mark Carney seems to be in Europe

21:26

a lot or Mark Carney seems to be

21:28

traveling around the world a lot and

21:30

what is he delivering uh from all that

21:33

travel? And yes, I don't think

21:35

Canadians, most Canadians expect him to

21:37

have delivered something at this very

21:39

moment, but in a year from now, if he's

21:42

still traveling at the same pace that

21:43

he's traveling and nothing has tangently

21:46

emerged, then I think that criticism

21:48

starts to stick. And the conservatives

21:50

are very good at identifying like a a

21:52

little emotional message and then

21:53

drilling on it in the weeks and months

21:56

to come. So, I don't think that's a bad

21:58

strategy. What struck me from the prime

21:59

minister um's travel this week though is

22:03

the tone and the framing. It's not at

22:06

all Justin Trudeau 2015. We're not

22:08

talking about Canada's back. We're not

22:10

talking about being boy scouts to the

22:12

world and talking about multilateralism

22:14

and peacekeeping. We're talking about

22:16

economic deals and trade deals. Um, and

22:19

his focus is very,

22:21

well, I mean, aside from the Indonesian

22:23

president's visit, it's very European

22:26

centric, which is clearly where he also

22:28

gravitates. Um, so that that I thought

22:31

was noticeable.

22:31

Yeah. Lots about security, too. Quick

22:33

quick last word to you, Shantel.

22:36

Uh but well the Ukraine is not a

22:40

European trip in the European sense of

22:43

the word and we saw the prime minister

22:46

on the Ukraine front uh meeting with the

22:48

prime minister of China is not terribly

22:51

European centric either nor is uh trying

22:55

to figure out how to help uh at this

22:58

juncture when it's undergoing a terrible

23:01

crisis. So I find that more diversified

23:04

than saying he's flying off to London

23:06

where his favorite restaurants may be.

23:09

Okay.

23:09

Well, he's just been there a lot and the

23:12

ch maybe we'll talk more about the China

23:15

relationship later, but I think that's

23:17

also very

23:17

he he's going to a rugby game in London.

23:20

I mean, Canada's playing, but yeah.

23:21

Okay, we'll leave it there. Thank you

23:23

all. That's that issue for this week.

23:25

I'm Rosemary Barton. Thanks for

23:26

watching. Thanks for listening.

23:28

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