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back in 2006 TVO started a new nightly current affairs program called The
Agenda and our first ever guest was Conrad Black newspaper proprietor member of the British House of Lords and prolific author so we thought it only made sense 19 years later as the agenda winds down to get back to Black and here he is conrad Black welcome back it's good to see you in that chair thank you nice to see you i thought we'd do a bit of a tour dorizon here of Canada US relations Canadian politics American politics and and because you've had such a fascinating life maybe a few life lessons along the way you good to go best is yet to come let's hope so sure you Why don't we start with what you said to me before we started and that was just before the cameras were rolling which is all this nonsense about Donald Trump not liking Canada and having it out for Canada mhm how do you square that belief of yours with all of his talk about making us the 51st state all he ever said about that was um the 51st state which he acknowledges by the way to be an underestimation of Canada demographically and otherwise i suggest that it was gratuitously rude to say we should have the same senatorial representation as the state of Delaware for instance uh it was in response to Justin Trudeau who said if you impose these tariffs the economy will collapse and him taking notice that we have never in his time or many years before pulled our weight in NATO he was really saying you'd be better off joining us i mean if your economy is that vulnerable and you can't pay for your own defense you'd be better off joining us he never said anything about taking Canada over and I noted that in one of the Globe and Mail's articles about it perfectly fine article in all other respects he used the word annexation six times he never said anything about that he didn't he didn't say I'm going to take Canada over he was saying that he thought Canada was in such a state of vulnerability it would be better off with federal union with the US no do you agree with that no i I think we can make a better country here but I I do agree with them that we haven't governed ourselves well but neither have they i mean if the US had been a well-governed country Trump wouldn't have been elected president either time so this federal by which I mean all three times because he undoubtedly won the second election too you you believe that of course with with 81 million harvested ballots and no way to verify any of them i mean come on Steve i mean let's go to grade one arithmetic there were 4 million more votes in in 2020 than in 2024 i'm not great at grade one arithmetic but I but I do follow the courts and apparently he went to court 60 times that was Rudy Giulianne he's punching Judy show those weren't real cases there were 19 lawsuits on the validity the constitutional vid validity of the election which requires the states to make any alterations to voting and vote counting rules the state legislatures and the courts would not hear any of them not one of them was judged including the the attorney general of Texas who uh was joined by 19 other states including Do you believe the election was stolen of course it h and it does happen in the US sometimes so was 1876 well that's a long time ago yeah so probably was 1960 and for all we know 2000 may have been also but let me get you back you said federal union a federal union with the United States do you think that makes any sense look the president himself asked me this and I said I myself would not vote for it because I frankly I think we can actually build not a greater country but a better country here um and and I wouldn't want to give that potential up but if you offered as Helmet Cole did to East Germany par on the currency I mean despite all the people waving a maple flag around a lot of people would take that and would be a nice incentive for them and if you promised retention of residential control control of residential matters so you didn't have the 20 million worst welfare cases in the US just crossing the border northwards in the you know two weeks after our federal union and and and also Canada's right to retain its gun rules it doesn't have that tradition which is an admirable tradition in some ways but leads to terrible amount of gun violence of everyone having a right to bear arms if you did that you'd get a respectable vote i don't think you'd win but make a respectable vote but you you you have to stop acting I said to him as if it's like uh admitting Puerto Rico to statehood or something like this this is a G7 country when did you speak to him about this uh well he phones me sometimes this particular conversation was about 10 days ago 10 days ago yeah so you still speak oh yeah sure well I don't phone him no but he phones me occasionally i've known him a long time what have you told him when he asks or if he asks your opinion about all the tariffing he's doing on us these days uh he hasn't he hasn't put it that way he uh he's he's not particularly asked my view on that do Okay so I will What do you think about all the tariffs he's putting on Canada in terms of whether they make I don't I don't think and I did tell him this i don't think that he's treating us fairly and I think it was particularly outrageous for him to put us in the same sentence as Mexico i mean the United States does have a legitimate grievance with Mexico uh Mexico as you know incentivizes American companies to shut down their factories incentivizes them to build new factories 5 miles inside the Mexican border takes parts from China fabricates them in Mexico and ships them back at a knockdown price into the US under the trade agreement add to that that the Mexican government has clearly been colluding in this invasion of the United States which the former regime tolerated but has now stopped but we don't do that that that was the point I made and we don't do any of that and you shouldn't compare us to Mexico and he took that point he took that point look he he's uh I don't want to I'm not an intimate of his and he's I I have no standing to say that he pays a particularly great amount of attention to my views but he does ask my opinion sometimes as will I over the remaining moments we have and I'm flattered just even though the position you hold is slightly less august than 19 years ago you were in this studio and we talked about whether Canada was meeting the moment and here is what you had to say sheldon if you would roll the clip canada is a country that I think has become accustomed to thinking of itself as sort of a middle power and a secondary country and and yet there 191 members of the United Nations and Canada is undoubtedly one of the 10 most important countries in the UN and it and it isn't a middle power it's a very important country and uh I think I think we have to act like that in the intervening nearly two decades has this country performed on the world stage in a way that you think one of the 10 best countries in the world should have been acting uh in the Harper years I think it did and in the Trudeau years I think it has not and we'll have to wait and see with the Carney years um but no it's it's become a kind of joke in the world as a woke country and a silly country and uh one that doesn't pull its weight in the alliance and uh a and and is descending the economic ladder i mean we're becoming uncompetitive we have net net capital outflows which is scandalous for a rich country like this but it's all to play for i mean all people and all institutions fluctuate so we haven't done mortal damage to ourselves it's still 41 million you know well motivated talented workforce people in in a treasure house of a country with relatively stable political institutions so it's as I say it's all to play for we just in my opinion have not been well governed the last decade do you think and and I like Justin Trudeau as a person i just don't think he was a good prime minister do you think what you've seen of Mark Carney so far suggests that he has aims at making this a more serious country on the world stage he does he certainly does unfortunately I part company with him in some policy areas but I but I think he's an able man sincerely motivated to do well for the country and I wish him success uh you part company with him on what in particular he's much too preoccupied with and takes a unsustainable view on climate matters he's too He got rid of the carbon tax yeah yeah having championed it for 20 years yeah but I mean he can read the polls too you know but um uh I would say that he he you know I was on that Davos scene for a long time just in my area and the media indeed I succeeded the late Bob Maxwell as head of the media section and and it was a useful place for me to go to talk shop with Rert Murdoch and people like that but um the mentality is a sort of a derigist mentality a kind of unelected officials will tell people what's good for them and I I I fear that he is a bit uh affected by that viewpoint because of some things he said i I I don't know him personally so I can't comment him you never met him i've met him once i doubt if he would remember it no reason why I should but I just to shake hands with i'm pretty sure that if Mark Carney met Conrad Black he'd probably remember that um look he's a perfectly amiable man to see i mean politicians usually aren't do you agree with him that we need a complete revolutionary reset of our relationship with the United States a substantial one yes I would say that i mean I look I think we it's complicated we it is so ingrained in this country to be self-conscious about our relations with the US that what we really need to do is emancipate ourselves and be a little more spontaneous but to do that we have to become strong in the world we need a military appropriate to our size as a country and to the role we want to play we need positive cash flows we need greater economic growth we need more swiftly rising per capita income we're losing ground all the time to states that when I and even you were younger you know were behind us and and if if we did these things we would be much more confident in the relations with the US would to many to a large extent would would correct itself um but yes I mean what you're I think really saying is should we seek uh greater access to other markets and things the answer is yes but on the other hand it's a huge advantage to have that colossal market right beside us but we're not exploiting it properly do you trust Mr carney's economic bonafites given his background to be the guy to make those kinds of transformative changes to our economy i trust his bonafites but I don't trust his judgment i thought that he was a catastrophic governor of the Bank of England uh he made a complete mockery of the much vaunted independence of the Bank of England he became a parrot for David Cameron and his chancellor George Osborne and he tried to he he was the inventor of Project Fear and he tried to terrorize the British public into thinking that the grass would grow in the streets of the city of London right in front of the Bank of England if it left Europe and the fact is it's done better than Europe has since it's left even though it's had a series unprecedented in their history of five incompetent failed prime ministers in eight years britain never had that before in all the history of that office going back to Walpole in the 18th century i'd like to ask you as a guy who's originally from the province of Quebec what you make of the current situation where the forces of separatism in the province of Alberta are significantly higher than those in the province of Quebec what do you make of that well it's a it's an economic rather than a cultural phenomenon as you know so there are different types of separatist sentiments but um I I I find myself uh let me put it this way I I I understood and never ridiculed the idea of the independence of Quebec i always understood French Canadians had it in their minds that ultimately they'd like to have their own country that's understandable i I think a greater vision is a bicultural country it's a much larger country in the case of Alberta they have been discriminated against and and there has effectively been a war conducted against their principal industry and uh and I I I think the present premier there Danielle Smith is our best most capable politician in the country right now and she is not putting herself at the head of one faction or another in the upcoming referendum she's promised so she's position to be the head of Alberta whether it's a province or a country uh but I think we should all understand that they have a legitimate agre grievance and it has to be addressed whatever look nobody likes air pollution or water pollution or any pollution but on the other hand it is potentially by far our greatest industry and we're handicapping ourselves as well as particularly punishing Alberta and Saskatchewan by by not maximizing our ability as a country to profit from the petroleum industry and if Alberta seceded their objective would not really be to set up the Republic of Alberta or the Dominion of Alberta realm of Alberta it it they would move quickly into the US and this country really would fall apart so we we better know what we're dealing with here quebec pulled out it's a French country and you could do something with what's left but if Alberta pulls out the whole thing is coming down in your view then what does the current prime minister need to do to ensure that Alberta doesn't want to leave build the pipelines uh give a better tax treatment to the industry oil and gas industry and those tempted to invest in it and uh well being extremely vigilant on environmental matters and and doing the necessary to make sure we have high environmental standards let me just check and make sure I heard you properly because to my knowledge she hasn't promised to have a referendum on this she's promised to lower the threshold by which a citizen's initiative can come forward to have a referendum on this i think those are different things yeah you I I may I may have misdescribed it and I'm I accept your correction okay but but I I I think you can see where she's headed here i Well she's got a faction of her party that Well let's put it this way she doesn't want to get Jason Kennedy right yeah and that that's a good I mean I don't no disrespect to Jason who's a friend of mine also but I that's that's it but I don't think that's the whole explanation i think she I mean you know I'm not we're all unlicensed psychiatrists particularly where politicians are involved but I think she not only doesn't want to find herself riding two horses at once and and falling between them she she also as an Albertan feels that it's time to raise the ante rather than as Albertans feel with some reason they have been a kind of a doormat for Ottawans paying no attention to in their case legitimate regional ambitions which are by the way legitimate national ambitions everyone in Canada should want us to make as a country as much as we can out of our oil and gas resources let me follow up on something you just said a moment ago which is you thought she is the best premier of the 13 in the country today and I'm curious as to why you don't have Doug Ford at the top of your list i what I think I said was the best politician we have in the country which didn't exclude Ottawa oh okay um because uh look again I Doug's a friend of mine too there used to be a time Stephen when I first knew you and I knew all the premers and and I literally knew them all but uh you you've now mentioned an absolute majority of the ones I do know but um uh I think Doug is not as fast on his feet or as imaginative as she is and and he's not in the firing line the way she is i mean um three straight majorities steel and auto under massive tariff i told him he's the FDR of Canada i mean two propos you know not yet not yet no he has not four terms now no but you know no one else but Roosevelt had three terms but um um he he his his technique is different and he he's he's a subtler and less um I want to be careful here this is not a porative thing but his leadership style is different danielle sort of gets out in front of the pack a bit more than Doug does he he look he's I I I knew the mayor too Rob Ford very well and despite the problems he had I always admired him as a mayor he cared about the people he returned every phone message he ever got which is an astonishing feat when you a job like that um no I'm I'm I'm pro the Fords but I I think right now she's more on the firing line and and I think she's managing extremely skillfully she may have cost Pierre Polv the prime ministership do you accept that as a thesis i wouldn't have thought so i would have thought actually Doug did more to do that but I I look I think it was Trump who cost Pierre the the the headship of the government and he didn't mean to do it but you know the United States is like a great beast which what did Pier Trudeau say it's like sleeping with an elephant or something i mean it twitches a bit and I mean Donald Trump couldn't care less who the prime minister of Canada is and and he doesn't spend five minutes a week thinking about Canada i mean he likes it but he doesn't think about it very much and and he didn't mean to influence the election he didn't particularly think he was he sure did he surely did but that that's not by the way not a flattering comment on the maturity of of our voters or our politicians i mean Carney by look I all's fair in politics and he won the election doing it so I'm not knocking him but this business of his about you know I virtually standing on the Ontario shore of Lake Ontario shaking his fist at the Americans as they tried to cross we'll fight in the beaches and the hills and streets and so on this churchillian thing of that the Trump is trying to break us is all nonsense I I it it really disappointed me as a citizen that anybody took this foolishness seriously one more question on Doug Ford fire when ready i wouldn't have thought that he would have been your kind of conservative is he no but but the you know I not under you know he isn't but you know I understand their political party in a large jurisdiction is pretty big tent so I'm not intolerant of other factions no but if you had your way what would you have him do that he's not doing um I I I I'm a little reluctant to get into criticizing these guys i think in general he's doing he's doing a good job but I I think he's um he's an indistinct conservative i think he could he could do more incentivizing the economy though he's done I think very well in job creation i admire the fight he's putting up to maintain the auto industry and I think I think he's going to have to uh perhaps take more drastic measures to succeed in that uh but look my kind of conservative is a little more the person who goes out and sells conservatism the way Reagan and Thatcher did uh and in a way Pier did u and in Pier's case he sold it as greater liberty to the individual no I am not harsh i'm not heartless i'm I'm not cutting benefit to needy people or anything like that i'm promising greater liberty for you with the money you earn and and the the one of the problems we've had politically in this country is we don't have a real conservative party except for Harper we haven't had one since Robert Bordon federally and and we we got into this business of uh the Liberals winning four or five elections in a row and then they would lose one and then you know a basically because of their hold on Quebec now Mal Rooney ended that but we've still had these conservative leaders who essentially say I'll do the same thing as the liberals only I'll do it better well if people want liberals they'll get real liberals and not pretend ones and by the way I've often supported the Liberal Party i'm not hostile to it it's a by far the most successful political party in any large democracy in the last uh since since the start of the Laurier or end of the 19th century but um but the I like conservatives who who actually sell conservatism the way the way Reagan and Thatcher did again this is a different country and a smaller country but that's not what Doug does that's not his method it's a populist thing which is fine but it's not actually saying this is why we're different is Donald Trump a conservative uh yeah populist conservative um and and yes but but loves only in certain areas he's he's a low tax man certainly but he's a high debt and deficit guy well I he's he's a person who sincerely believes you can cut the deficit on a variation of the art laugher curve you can you can use economic growth but you've got to you've got to be genuine about it and not just make trivial gestures he he he's uh and in in as a economic conservative on the tax side yes and it remains to be seen if his idea of how to cut the deficit will work but I look the fact is when when Lynden Johnson cut taxes and and even when Ronald Reagan cut taxes eventually the quite promptly in Johnson's case and eventually in Reagan's case the the deficit did come down so I mean I we got to give Donald a chance before we say that he is actually a tolerator of deficits um on on social matters he's become one I would say somewhat socially conservative do you believe him i mean when he says he's pro-life you don't really believe he's pro-life right no I think he is yeah i mean I don't I I don't think he's opposed to I think his views are similar to mine i mean I'm not enthused about abortion but they will happen and those that happen should be unstigmatizing and they should certainly be conducted in a proper medical fashion that is not the view he advances these days i I I disagree i I he I don't I think that those are his views he's not trying to abolish abortion he's giving it to the states to decide do you ever wish he would behave better yes I did have you told him that yeah he asked my ad he look he does ask my advice and it doesn't always follow it by any means but uh he he asked what advice I had for him to sort of maintain the dignity of the office and I said "Why don't you look at some news reels just get your staff to string together an hour of news reels different situations of Franklin D roosevelt John F kennedy and Ronald Reagan i mean you at at a certain point you you know if you've reached the greatest office in the world and and the fact of occupying the office is a huge asset but you've got to maintain the dignity of the office that doesn't mean you've got to do without a sense of humor he is he authentically does have a terrific sense of humor he's very amusing he's even more amusing in person than he is publicly do you ever find yourself though watching him on television and when he gets into a real weave thinking to yourself Donald stop being such a bloiating horse's ass and just act more normally please you're kind of abusing the dignity of the office do you ever find yourself thinking that i I do fortunately much less now than I did in his first term but yes I do the way I say it to my wife is can you imagine Roosevelt or Eisenhower talking like this i mean you know at some point you I mean god damn it you're the present you know as Roosevelt said the head of the American people and you have to act like it but but he with that said you know like like you or me or anyone else the longer you do the job the better you get at it he's much better than he was i would like to ask you about you my life won't take Well it might you never know because you've had truly one of the most fascinating lives of anybody who's ever lived in this country you have run big companies you have met important world leaders you have made lots of money you have written many fabulous books uh and most famously unlike I would say 99.9% of our guests here uh you were a guest of the American taxpayer as you like to refer to it uh you did some time we talked about that on this program 12 years ago during another one of your visits sheldon the clip if you would i went through a very humiliating experience being uh fired from the business that I built with my associates and indicted and convicted and sent to prison released and sent back to prison um but the Bureau of Prisons and the Federal Court in Chicago said I was an exemplary prisoner commended me for what I did when I was there i did the best I could i've done the best I could throughout this thing and I believe that there is some likely reason uh insusceptible to my discovery of it though it is for such a downfall as I suffered to have occurred and I accept that in if I may say so in a completely humble way i mean it's came it's an accident of life i followed up on that interview asking you why why the downfall what possible reason would there have been that was sort of more metaphysical if you like and I asked you "What do you think's going on here?" And you said "No it's too soon for me to to weigh in on this yet so I'm hoping given that we're 12 years since that last interview you may have a better sense and be prepared to discuss what happened there." Well we are as you are we're getting into religious matters here yeah and I'm in that tradition tins to consider that to be a private matter but uh I would um it's a fair question so let me see if I can address it um I I would not qualify as a fervent or pious person but I do believe that there is a divine intelligence that up to a point can be propitiated and it's certainly worth a try and believing that it does enhance a person in this case my own confidence that in disccernible though it often is there is a purpose to otherwise inexplicable things even horrible things like a plane crash or something um and if you are asking me if I have a better idea of what the purpose is the answer is no because I I since I accept that that let me put it this way i came to the conclusion many years ago that I had been mistaken in thinking there were no spiritual forces in the world and and and there was nothing other than what we see i think I believe that's a mistake and I believe it's harder to embrace that than it is some form of belief in the contrary view uh that being the case I would regard it as kind of presumption in my part to say what the purpose is but I can go this far i actually I actually feel that and if I can say this without it being morally self-important that in some ways I became a more substantial person as a result of it it was a great challenge and it was I don't want to be uh histrionic but it was it was extremely difficult at times but but I got through it and I my wife and my family got through it and um all in all I feel I you know I did my best with the bad end of cards I was dealt on the question of the um guilt or innocence by which it came to happen that that downfall occurred that I think is generally recognized now to be nonsense the US government has effectively apologized for it and the official position of the US government is that those charges should never been laid and the statute under which that I was convicted uh was by a unanimous Supreme Court with only one recusal and the judgment written by Madame Justice Ginsburg who was a liberal judge um found the law ultravas to the United States Congress and unconstitutional beyond the powers of the Congress and unconstitutional i mean unconstitutional itself but in any case beyond the powers of the Congress and you got a presidential pardon as well i did and and in the US system you have um uh you my authority for this is the president who gave the pardon on advice of his council after extensive discussion with Alan Durvitz who was acting for me and you have a a pardon of mercy where there's no comment on the verdict it's just enough is enough let this person you know let's let him get on with his life uh or you have a power of expungement where you actually say this was an injustice and that's what I have by every normal measure you are a wealthy man but you don't have the wealth you once had and I wonder if you regret that i do yeah I do and I'm working hard to make more money what are you doing to make more money well I I'm I'm an investor in finance here but I I stay generally out of public companies do your books make you money yeah a little bit but I mean I mean unless you're you know JK Rowling or Tom Wolf or something you're not going to live well on what you make as an author you have just written your second volume of the political and strategic history of the world you're now up to the year 1661 is that right well in on what's published I'm up to 1661 yeah but on what I've written I'm up I'm almost at the end now i'm into the 1970s so how many more volumes are there going to be one more one more volume yeah and how if all three volumes together will represent how many pages a little over 3,000 it's the history of the world i mean come on you know I'm not a pamphlete no I get it but I remember the last time you were here I said to you why don't you ever write short books well I've done that you said I have done that and I said what do you consider short and you said 600 pages no no but since I was here I mean it's a long time between invitations if you don't mind me saying so i since I was here I published two short books i did my manifesto for Canada you can read it on the plane from here to Calgary and my history uh what's it called forgotten history it's history of human rights in Canada you can read that on the way back from the plane from Calgary so they're little books people tune in to this program to get advice on what books to read so well done keep plugging away that's good uh well you beat Mel Brooks that's for sure he did the history of the world part one in his movie but he never got around to part two or three yeah no I I and you you get that you know you get and my friend um uh Simon Cabbag Montury's history of the world isn't real history of the world either it's a one volume yeah will you ever write a book with somebody who is a very good author and to whom you are married barbara Emile I've I've suggested it to her but she is not enthused about the idea why not well we have different styles and she I think she's generally speaking a better writer than I am and a more a more a more competent writer to write about a variety of things like a good columnist should be i tend to write more or less about things I know something about and and uh but I'm I'm a relatively fast writer and she's extremely fidious and you can see it in the quality of what she publishes but she doesn't crank it out as fast as I do so I I think it could be an editorial challenge jimmy and Rosalyn Carter once said or I guess she said it that when she wrote a book with him with her husband the former president they almost divorced over it and they were they were married for 70 years yes very happily from all you can say writing a book with your spouse brings you that close well it does i mean she sometimes helps me with editing and um she's editing for her and not for me you see that's a problem uh last question you are 80 years old now which I can scarcely believe and I bet there are days when you can't believe it either i I still don't i mean I I I I have to pinch myself i feel the same as I did 30 years ago so what do you still want to achieve in life well I I want to go on I want to go on replenishing my fortune a bit you know I I don't want to be crass but that what I went through doesn't do wonders for your uh for your net worth you know it's horribly expensive especially in the United States and they ruined my company that my associates and I worked 30 years to build and one of the great newspaper companies in the world and it's completely destroyed um I mean some of the units still function though not any of them with the strength that they had in our time but um uh so I just want to build up more so I more comfortable and secure in my declining years and have something to leave my family um I I I'm I'm not a person who was ever chiefly motivated by money and I don't need you know a huge fortune by today's standards and I have no ambition of that but I wanted to you know rebuild things a bit and uh I think when this book the third volume in this series is over I I will have almost run my course as a historian i started with biographies then I went to national histories and now I've almost threw a history of the world political history of the world um but I I might have a stab at philosophy which would require me to read a lot more about it before I wrote about it but but that would be more of a hobby than a preoccupation this very large three volume set that I'm just finishing second volumes just came out which you kindly mentioned um I had to get that off my chest because I thought and you haven't asked me this question do you mind if I answer a question you didn't ask um I thought that it was worth making the point that you don't have to spend 20 years reading 40 800page volumes of things like the Cambridge ancient medieval and modern history to get a grasp of world history you can put it into a much more concise form without it being slipshot a and superficial and you can make it a tolerably interesting read even though you're putting an awful lot of facts into a relatively short space so I'm I'm trying to make a point here as I mean the fact is when this series is through I don't expect many people to read it from the first page to the last but it has a good index and anything you want is there and it's in context it's not like googling something where it'll give you you know it'll it'll give you or or an old time encyclopedia or something where it gives you a sketch of what whatever it is the subject is but it it relates it to what went before and what followed and how and just how it happened and there is a certain logic to history if you can get it condensed enough you can see how each phase played into the next one so the key is to get enough consolidation that you have a clear pattern of sequence but not so consolidated it's just a 30,000 foot altitude fast flight over things so that's what I'm trying to do now I think I' I've succeeded but obviously you know I can't be like the guy approving his own expense account i mean we got to see what others think but the reviews that I've had so far confirm that you look like you still got lots of gas in the tank oh I'm I' i'm in fighting trim i'm all ready to go and I one of the many things I learned from my father is it is a mistake simply to retire i mean he was very successful man he retired at the age of 47 and he essentially died of boredom prematurely in his 60s and and I mean change occupations even involuntarily sometimes but but don't just do not don't just sit in a rocking chair and start rocking i mean if that's your occupation you're not going to do it for long you're clearly never bored are you happy though yeah pretty much pretty much i wasn't always but I'm Yeah I'm Yeah I'm quite happy thanks yeah good well we're very happy whenever you show up in the studio and accept our invitations to be here we've had many great conversations over the years dear Stephen and although we don't agree on all public policy matters you've been a good friend and thank you for having me not at all it's been our pleasure pleasure is mine 
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