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fight against foreign medling a bill
which would give Canada new modern tools
to combat foreign interference one tool
a foreign agent registry but likely not
in time for the next
election so what's to be made of this
new legislation and will it actually
make a difference hi there I'm Ros Mary
Barton here to break it down on at issue
tonight shantell be Andre coin and Elia
Raj good to see you all as usual Shantel
let's start with you what do you make of
the legislative response to I think not
only some of the stuff that we saw out
of the inquiry but also to some of the
demands that we've seen over the past 12
months um I if you were away for a year
you would have thought we have changed
government last year at this time we
were all into David Johnston there's
nothing to see here let's move on uh
report and the government going along
with it and this week it was really
interesting thing to hear Minister
leblan say that foreign interference had
become the greatest threat to our
democracy that certainly didn't happen
over the past 12 months so presumably
the government has suddenly come around
to the reality that it needs to address
this I think the legislation is helpful
goes some way to uh kind of fend off
Foreign
interference but I also think that the
parties and I mean all parties are uh
remarkably silent on their own rules for
nomination meetings and Leadership
campaigns yeah and if I were looking to
kind of create a cell within any of the
three main parties I would probably
start at the local level by packing
nomination meetings and none of them
seem to be interested in talking about
that starting with the liberals who have
been found have issues uh that pertain
to foreign influence at the nomination
level yeah and that was part of Justice
ug's uh report on last Friday and and
may indeed be part of her
recommendations by the time we get there
but I agree that there doesn't seem to
be um an opening from the Liberal Party
to discuss changing those nomination
rules which are a little bit broader
than what everybody else has Andrew yeah
I'll come back to that but yeah she she
sounds like she's going to recommend
something on that and it'll be
interesting to see how the part respond
but uh to take up Chantel's Point U you
know they're nailing down each of their
points of vulnerability they've been
doing this in Immigration on housing on
decriminalization of drugs and it does
sound at times like somebody else was in
not just there's a new government but
that somebody else was in power over
these last little while so yeah the
thing that was um absolutely not
something they wanted to talk about
until today is now something they want
to put up in the shop window uh the the
measures themselves look sound enough
the only beef are people going to have
is what took you so long other countries
have done this long ago um experts and
opposition parties have been calling
this for some years in Canada and now we
finally got a foreign agent registry
promise not in time for the next
election so the next election will be
held under the same old same old so to
be investigated perhaps some years after
that but to come back to the thing on
the on the party nominations absolutely
that's one of the clearest things in the
O PR preliminary report is this is a
mess uh this is an open invitation uh to
mean it's long been a scan It's been a
Scandal for decades but it's usually
been a domestic Scandal of stacking
meetings and all kinds of untoward uh
things going on in in both in nomination
races and in leadership races but it
goes to another level when essentially
you've opened a portal for uh foreign
malign actors to get in and and and mess
around in our politics so uh it will be
interesting to see what Justice o
recommends and it will be really
interesting whether the any of the
parties are willing to take it up
because the reason they do it is because
they want to use these meetings uh as
and these these races as membership
drives uh and nobody really wants to
turn over the stone and find out what's
underneath yeah I I think the other
point the Liberal Party would make
certainly is that they are trying to
open up democracy to as many people as
possible but that seems to have left
them vulnerable as Justice ug found in
the case of H Dong's writing at any rate
is anybody whe whether they're adults or
not whether they're citizens or not
whether they're members of the party or
not you can take a good thing too far
yeah I'm just going to tell you what
they that's only telling you what their
point is yes Shantel yes no wait a
minute I've been watching these
nomination meetings since
1984 and there's nothing nothing
Democratic about stacking a room
exactly sorry yeah yeah okay that
whether you're doing it because you're
for the anti-abortion movement or for
climate change I put pick your choices
yeah the easiest way to distort
democracy is at the local level by
stacking a room it's not Democratic to
do that
gave himself the power to appoint
candidates because that was happening
we're talking about 1988 198 how many
years is that so
no Democratic process but I'm saying
that what their argument would be is the
changes that came in when Justin Trudeau
was there was to try and attract more
people of different backgrounds into the
process that's what I'm just going to
that's what their line would be we don't
have to believe sorry for having covered
these they didn't need to do any of this
we're all open to have people of
different backgrounds
Alia well I think it depends what you
mean by stacking because for some people
stacking a room is just inviting a bunch
of your neighbors stacking room is
usually meant because you don't like who
showed up in the room um with a bus I
think yeah with a bus um I think there
is a difference
between I think there's a difference
between allowing like foreign students
who are on a visa to come vote in a
nomination race and possibly asking you
know 14-year-olds who are Canadian
citizens to vote in nomination race or
even permanent residents because I don't
know how the government can say we're
going to ban permanent residents from
voting in a nomination race but we allow
them to serve in the Canan forces like
that doesn't make sense to me either but
anyways to go back to the actual content
of the legislation I think it's
important to remember that it's not just
Justice um Uggs interim report and the
the final report that will come uh late
in the fall uh of this year but it's
also that the government actually knows
the content of two other reports nsic
cop and
NSI um who have who were you know under
the David Johnston regime they were
tasked to go look at all the
intelligence these are like top secret
cleared MPS and look at the review and
make their own determination so the
government has had those reports since
March it is sitting on them and has yet
to make them public but it knows what
the recommendations are and in the case
of nsic cop two conservatives sit on
there and the recommendations were
unanimous so there there may be other
political impetus that we're not aware
of um the criticisms that I've heard
about this legislation frankly it was
just that it was not ambitious enough
and that uh a lot of the changes that
are being made one of them deals with a
1951 law that wasn't updated are long
overdue I'm less worried about the uh
the registry not coming into Force
because frankly the registry whether or
not it's for for the next election
wouldn't stop the kind of meddling that
is alleged to happen in some writings
across this country if anybody wants to
do something covertly they wouldn't sign
up to a registry the registry might have
helped you know the the scientists at
the Winnipeg lab for example but it's
not going to prevent foreign
interference from happening um but I
think you know the the greatest take
away from this is frankly that there is
not that much opposition because you
didn't hear any of the opposition
parties kick up a storm so the
government obviously got uh a balance
right and probably is protecting itself
from stuff that will be made public in
the weeks and months ahead but but the
the fact remains and this goes to your
earlier Point shant and that that many
people will look at this and say well
what the heck took you so long
especially because I I had been told the
legislation was ready back in
January well the foreign the foreign
registry was promised in 2022 yes yes
but the legislation was also ready to go
and didn't come yeah sh you you could
ask whatever it took you so long about
everything in this file including uh
last year at this time when we were
talking about how the government was
saying it didn't need a public inquiry
uh all was
sound I I put it down to U I guess your
choice is negligence or
incompetence I guess it mix up both yeah
last word to you Andrew on that well
just to address Alia's point about you
know the the the malign actors aren't
going to register with the foreign agent
registry the point is that you you are
you you you got another way of getting
them if they don't if they're found to
be acting and they haven't registered
then you've got a way of nailing them
without having to get into all the other
things it's a bit like nailing Al Capone
for tax evasion you know it just gives
you another route to get at them okay
that was yeah but some of the criticisms
were like the weebo chat messages like I
don't know that you can really go into
China and say oh you should have
registered you know like that wouldn't
have
Pierre Poilievre’s relationship with lobbyists
applied at issue the corporate Lobby
Pier PV has come down hard on lobbying
my experience with the corporate
lobbyists in Ottawa the main groups
there have been that they have been
utterly useless but dozens of Executives
and lobbyists have attended high-end
fundraising events headlined by PV so
what's be made up pv's message to
corporations to stand against his record
of meeting with lobbyists at fundraisers
let's bring everybody back Shantel
Andrew and Alia I know everyone has lots
to say about this Andrew you wrote about
it so you get to you get to start what
do you make of um the the message that
he's sending and then his actions and
how his actions line up with that well I
I wish lobbyists were totally useless in
my experience in my observation all too
often they're they're fully earning
their pay that the government policies
are all too often framed to make life
easier for business rather than forcing
them to work for a living so if there
was somebody who came along and said you
know what uh we're going to get
government out of the bed out of bed
with business and business out of bed
with government we're not going to be
providing any more subsidies or special
favors to businesses so fire your
lobbyists because we're not going to
listen to them all that would be great
but that's not what he said if you
actually you know listen to his speech
or read the PC road for the National
Post it's he he doesn't say I'm G to I'm
going to stop meeting with lobbyists he
doesn't say I'm going to stop giving
handouts to business he doesn't say I'm
going to re in lobbying with any new
regulations and he doesn't say to
business U stop you know playing
politics stop coing after parties he
basically says enlist on my side uh
first of all saying I'm not going to
bring you any policies unless you first
of all make them popular with the so I'm
not going to take any risks or get out
in front or you know lead and secondly
he says uh if I do bring any policies
you like I expect quote unquote I expect
you to get out and sell them for me so
basically he's conscripting business as
marketing agents for for conservative
policies um that is not quite the the
tough love you know separation of
business and state message that I think
some people were taking at it's just
simply switching you know from business
cozying up to the Liberals to cozing up
to the conser
though though the fact that he's calling
them useless and has previously said I
would never uh spend any time with
anyone on Bay Street and then you know
we find out he's done three or four
fundraisers on Bay Street I mean there
is some obvious hypocrisy there that I
think would confuse Canadians a little
bit in terms of what he's actually
trying to defend
Elia well I think you know part of what
he's saying there and Andrew is right on
all the points that he made um is he's
also trying to muddy the waters because
one of the
probably the strongest attacks against
Mr PV thus far has been the relationship
that he has with his senior adviser
Jenny Burns who is who has a lobbying
company that lobbies the Ontario
government and so um I think he's trying
to muddy the waters with that uh in in
the sense that while you know a Pock on
all your houses and we've seen some of
the questions in in the House of Commons
this week attacking uh the NDP leader
brother uh we've heard attacks flying on
the liberal side as well so I think it's
it if he's trying to protect himself by
making it seem like everybody else is
doing this I think the very strong
stance that he has taken against um the
lobbying Community or I we should say
certain groups within the lobbying
Community like he has named the Canadian
Federation of Independent businesses the
Canadian Business Council uh the
Canadian Chamber of Commerce um almost
makes you wonder like is there a
conservative waiting in the wing to
replace these businesses with their own
um but it it speaks to
um I think what he's really saying yes
is I don't yes I don't want to take
risks but also it's pretty obvious you
know everybody in the advocacy movement
would know that if you want politicians
to respond to something you need to make
it easy for them so you need the people
to demand it I don't think that that is
new that's just stating the obvious I
think what you know this was an
editorial about capital gains supposed
to be and he never took a position he
basically told business go out and sell
this policy for me so it can be easier
for me to vote against the government's
bill because the people that I'm
courting support from they are all
supportive of this or many of them
that's what public opinion polls tell us
so there's just so many different
messages at play and I agree with
Andrew's point about it was quite
something to say well these people are
in bed with the liberals or not uh they
were not opponents enough of the liberal
government get on my side Lobby basic
for me sell my policies and then I will
be responsive okay
Shantel I um I don't disagree about uh
trying to divorce himself from some
inside the bubble I would say
controversies over lobbying I don't
think that most people anywhere in
Canada are worrying about Jenny burn and
her lobbying ties but I thought the
first goal was to uh get off the hook on
the cap gain tax changes the what the
Liberals have done is usually these
changes would have been part of a larger
budget bill that the conservatives are
set to oppose they've hived it off so
that they are meant to force the
conservatives to vote for or against
that specific issue and I don't think uh
Mr PF wants to fall into the Trap of
voting for against this this change
because it goes against this branding as
a common people Defender uh so he's he's
kind of using this as as a step to say
well you know if you can't make the case
why should I make the case for you yeah
but uh that being said I I don't believe
a liberal go a conservative government
will do without lobbyist and I don't
believe that cons the conservative party
should stop lobbyists from attending
fundraisers yeah
hocy yeah but you're not going to stand
at the door and say were you a lobbyist
uh and if so you can't give me money and
come to my dinner they don't invite
people to those fundraising dinners in
the sense of you come by invitation only
but I also think that the lobbying
industry has had a really good ride uh
from the business the corporate sector
since we've moved to political financing
that excludes big business why because
it makes lobbyist more important to all
those Lobby groups because they can't
anymore uh say we're giving you a big
check give us a hearing which is
probably good but which is I think
worked wonders for lobbyists yeah it
means that they have to go to these
things and they have to try and talk to
people directly Andrew well there's a
simple way to put lobbyists out of
business and that's stop giving out
special favors of the kind that
lobbyists Lobby for so partly it's a
policy question but I agree with on this
is yet another policy question on which
conservatives would expect the
conservatives to be taking a
conservative position so this on capital
gains on top of U the replacement ban on
replacement workers on top of subsidies
to electric vehicle battery PLS on each
of these PO is basically ducked and and
and not said any not taken any position
but now he's turning it into a virtue it
just shows how tough I am on business
that I'm going to make business U make
its own case I mean that that that could
be construed as quite brilliant
political tactics
Alia well just to go back to the the
relationship between you know the
fundraisers and the lobbyist I think you
know maybe it's like a very obvious
thing here in the bubble but a lot of
these lobbyists are former partisans you
know like they were working for Steven
Harper and now they went to for a gr
firm or a public relations firm and like
these are the same people that
volunteered during the election to knock
on doors and work in the war rooms so
it's basically like you're a fundraiser
with your friends it's
grotesque but that is the way it works
and I don't know that people outside of
this town realize that the other truth
frankly is that MPS will continue to go
to events I have been to events this
week and I have seen MPS at events
because these are their constituents and
frankly they want to say hello and they
want to learn about the policy options
and another truth frankly is that
lobbyists do do useful work because a
lot of times the government drafts
legislation in a vacuum and they don't
realize the UN unintended consequences
of their actions and it is lobbyists who
work for like or were hired for a
certain group of people that say oh wait
a second if you do this this is the
impact on my sector if it has unintended
consequences for Mr and Mrs Canada
they're out of luck if it has unintended
consequences for somebody who can pay
$10,000 to a lobbyist then they get a
sympathetic hearing yeah but but but
it's legal but it's it is legal let's be
clear last word yes last word but
sometimes you do bring knowledge to the
table if you're a lobbyist that impacts
Mr or Mrs Canada and if you don't listen
to any of it you won't know when and
it's up to the politician listening to
Federal workers push back on return to the office
make that call whether this was just
self-interest or whether there are
really uh you know this this will have
collateral consequences that will amount
to Collateral
Damage public servants are pushing back
against a three-day inof mandate three
days a week is purely political and puts
the services Canadians depend on at risk
but the president of the treasury board
says even a hybrid deal was never
promised a hybrid work environment is
not within the collective
agreements so what's to be made of this
Brewing battle between the public sector
employees and the government what would
those tensions mean for the Liberals
particularly over the summer let's bring
back our panelist Shantel Andrew Alia
Alia you want to start us off here I I I
think this is is one of these ones that
gets Canadians right across the country
talking because a lot of people are
obviously back at work 5 days a week um
but there is a legitimate conversation I
think to be had and the government could
be running into some real hot
water so sometimes you have an incident
where it makes it seem like the people
in Ottawa are completely disconnected
from things happening outside of Ottawa
and this is one of those
examples
um many public servants are upset that 3
days a week was not discussed in the
context of um their strike and that if
that had been uh at least if that was
the government's intention it should
have been make should have made it known
back then and so they're upset about
that I think the union is overplaying
its hand like services at risk for
employees going into to work an extra
day um I think the city of Ottawa may be
overplaying its hand too by saying that
the reason that they have asked for this
is because of struggling businesses
downtown downtown does look a bit of a
like a ghost town um but is should that
be driving the federal government's
decisions I don't know um what is
interesting about this is the pressure
that it is putting on the NDP there is
no way that the NDP is going to pull out
of the supply and confidence agreement
in the next few months because of this
one issue I would be incredibly
surprised we will not have an election
because of this one issue the NDP really
wants to make sure that you know dental
care and that contraception medic
medication and diabetes medication is
available to the public so that they can
you know say that the conservatives want
to threaten to take that away um but it
does put the NDP on a bit of a pickle in
the sense that the government clearly
has thought this through and Anita Anan
is right she and the government are
within their right to determine where
employees work um is there a middle
ground if you ask employees a lot of
them are just annoyed that they have to
bring their stuff back home every day
cuz they're hoteling and maybe if they
all had lockers or designated work face
they would be happier going 3 days a
week maybe there there's a middle ground
it sounds so trivial I'm sorry I feel
like it doesn't I mean there's and then
and we should point out there are civil
servants who don't work in the national
capital region who work in other
absolutely parts of the country too and
and they might uh have been hired
remotely and the second thing I will say
is that I don't think Ottawa is ever
jumping downtown like not before this or
Ork you thank you thank you no offense
to I live in yes yes Shel
so can I take a issue with the N the
notion that the government has thought
this true yes the government has thought
this to in I in making maybe Premier
Ford and the mayor of Ottawa happy that
being said the mayor of Ottawa is now
saying he's he would like more people
downtown but he never asked for this so
I guess he realized that the people who
elect him are also the people who are
unhappy he asked
publicly he just said that
um publicly I'm just stating a fact here
but when the minister says it's not in
the
contract that's not the point what I
want to hear is we have numbers that
show us that productivity is down
because we are not having civil servants
come in three days a week that's the
argument I'm interested in yeah I'm not
hearing it why because no one bothered
to ask themselves whether uh in this New
Era that we are in uh there are assets
to be had from working remotely uh or
whether it would really improve Services
I also think it was mishandled in the
way that it was brought about we just
tell you this is going to happen I think
it's going to hurt the Liberals on two
fronts it's going to hurt the Liberals
in an area where Ottawa and the larger
area where they tend to do well it puts
pressure on the NDP uh and puts them in
a really awkward position and bottom
line if this results in a Slowdown in
services or a perceived slowdown people
in this cycle of the government's life
are gonna say Justin Trudeau mishandled
this yeah last word to you Andrew U you
said that um some you know a lot of
people are back to working five days a
week a lot of people never stopped
working five days a week and for all
those people I think are looking at this
as althia said with an air of
incredulity at the unreality of it all
um you know I have no particular
position whether it should be two days
or three days or four days but I do
think it's within the prerogative of
management but I certainly think you
know for a public sector Union their
main weapon in any kind of fight like
these is political is embarrassing the
government making the government look
bad the extravagance of the rhetoric of
of the public SEC unions on this is so
out of whack with the actual importance
of the issue at hand that I don't think
I I I'm not sure I agree with Shantel it
may hurt the government in particular
Pockets but overall I think most people
are going to look at this and go get a
grip uh uh 3 days a week working in the
office is is no great hardship okay it
uh it has perceived as the reason why
you're suddenly not getting your
passport on time or whatever service and
then in the current public mood it's
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